I think that’s great. I figured that it would be easy for perfect to be the enemy of good enough if we had to plan and agree first. Easier and quicker to start big and simple and then refine. 
After work this evening, I can probably look in and help out.
Just so that we are not disappointed and not being a downer but the core problem I have found with this situation is that a large proponent of K40 users that we hear from will not read and understand much on their own. They want simple answers and quick fixes to complex questions They do not want to take on the effort of understanding before asking. Its as if part of the fun is the social interaction …
I say this because this is the nth time I have tried or participated in an attempt to reduce the redundancy of questions and provide summary information.
I don’t think the format of the content nor the ability to search is the core issue.
That does not mean that we shouldn’t try again!
I perceive this group to be their last ditch effort to get a solution, and I guess that is fine.
There is plenty of new content and interaction here to keep me engaged.
I think facebook is setup to make this worse. It promotes shallow, one-line questions and answers by its nature. But as you note, this is not unique to facebook. I was on the internet in the days of only news groups and there was some bit of that back then. I’ve been putting technical info and DIY howtos on the net (on other topics - I’m only about eight months into my K40) since about 1998.
You’ve hit an important point. The K40 is an industrial tool that requires technical understanding to run it, regular maintenance, and regular replacement of parts (mostly the tube). The facebook experience is “hey, look at what kewl stuff I made with my $400 LASER!!” The people most attracted to facebook eat this up. The Chinese K40 Laser group that I wrote the original for has over 10,000 members last time I looked.
But they can be taught. I spend a few minutes every morning scanning posts that indicate either being brand new or not understanding even the simplest things about the K40 and putting in pointers to the beginner’s insights in the files section. I almost universally get thanked for putting it there when I do this. But requests to the group’s admin to put a pointer in the sticky welcome message are ignored.
I differ with you in that I think there are some people who are teachable, and some that are not. The teachables can be sucked into thinking one more link gets them to the simple one-paragraph solution to their very complex problem. True, you can’t reach them all, but you can help some of them, and encourage them to get more deeply into the knowledge.
Er… I think.
Yes. Very this. (As the cool kids say today…)
Not trying to solve all the problems. But if I were new to the idea of a K40 and didn’t know where to look, I would have trouble finding the best information. It’s easy to say “do your research” but it’s actually harder to do that if you don’t know where to start.
There will always be fools. Thanks to both @donkjr and @keen for helping those who aren’t natively fools not be foolish, in the face of waves of persistently foolish people.
There’s a thing I call “teacher fatigue” that I get from time to time, and I sense some of that in Don. Over the last couple of decades advising electronics beginners I have gone through periods of just being tired of waves of new people who are of course, clueless.
I’m reminded of the story of the Army sergeant assigned to the inductee center where no matter how well they provided signs, colored stripes on the floor and so on, a significant fraction of the new recruits got it wrong. One day he just couldn’t stand it any more and leapt to the top of the uniforms issuance counter and yelled “You nitwits! You do this every day! Why can’t you ever get it right?”
We have newbies with us always.
I never tire of helping people. I tire of folks blatantly:
more whining …
None of the things above require that a person be an expert in anything to get help.
I know that the information that I provide could be simpler and more organized for newbies. I like to first provide all the information that I have in an engineering context and then simplify it for audiences.
I stopped spending time on simplification because I found that simplified material is not read by those audiences and no feedback is provided to improve it. Clearly, he information that I have created attracts engineering-type folks [I get a lot of direct email inquiries] and that keeps me rolling …
An example is the LPS troubleshooting guide. The most active “help needed” subsystem of the K40 is the LPS that is why I spend so much time on it. In most cases, users do not read this step by step guide, just keep asking questions until its fixed. I don’t think the guide can be simpler [then again there is always room for improvement].
just saying … now I will stop whining … and go back to making!
My winning rule: when you finish winning you have to also suggest a solution …
I keep returning to this problem and wonder if we provided kits and instructions if this would improve the situation.
Example: One of my biggest worries is that there are 1000’s of K40 users running dangerous machines, machines that can blind and kill them.
This is why I started working with the Kit concept. To see if this would help newcomers make their machine safe. I have not yet created the instructions for these, ran out of energy… maybe this year…
I am currently working on a laser safety system geared towards the K40 crowd that incorporates, interlocks, temp senor etc, with a graphical display, but all the critical functions are done with discreet logic chips, no arduino software that can glitch. @Adam_Haile is doing the heavy lifting on the design, I am along for the ride and marketing and distribution. Hopefully will have a prototype ready in a couple of months. It will be very much a DIY kit, so not for everyone, but as long a a few people adopt it, that is a few safer K40’s out in the wild.
Keep in mind to be compliant with most laser interlock safety specifications NO electronics [only switch closures] may be in series with the control circuitry :).
This means that interlocks must be mechanical switches with mechanical interface with the enclosures.
I hear you Don. I’ve been there. We differ in detail, not substance.
I started on the tidy-up, and stopped for a moment to think: I was trying to include PDF links to more details and I realized that PDF is the wrong structure. HTML was made for this. The wider internet has subverted this to get clicks and eyeballs, but I think the intellectual seduction mode I think would be most helpful probably would profit from being in a captive html page here. Can that work? I could cram it onto my personal web page, but that’s where people go to look for guitar pedal info, no K40 laser information. This is a better fit.
On the controller/monitor: I may have mentioned working on a Pi as an overseer. Much to do there. Frankly, mine will migrate to a Pi and a Protoneer CNC controller when I get past some more growing pains. As I have it now, it’s reading a paddlewheel flowmeter, watching incoming and outgoing water temp (which tells you Watt-seconds removed as well as coolant temp), and can be featured up to read control voltage setting, etc, etc.
Don, thanks for that - I did not know that the standards specify hardware only, not electronics. I’m all over electronics and electrical safety requirements, but not interlock stuff.
Yup, already part of the design
Here’s some things I came up with. Maybe this will help if you haven’t already thought of them:
Local 5" LCD display with touch screen for the Pi for the control program
Isolated I2C connection from Pi to the Laser for laser side peripherals
4-channel A-D on the isolated I2C side for reading analog stuff, like tube current and the setting of the control pot
Possible switch monitoring, i/o for isolated laser side stuff
Camera inside the laser compartment, so the Pi can send it outwards via wifi
Power on relay so the Pi can power the thing on as well.
The list goes on. So many designs, so little time…
This will probably spawn a spirited discussion:
None of the below intends to deter anyone from making improvements or building alternate approaches. Its just that in this discussion I have “been there done that” so I fill compelled to poke the beast…
I would never endorse a laser or CNC machine in which main power is turned on any automated way. Once the machine is turned on and enabled by a human (after ensuring the machine and room is in a safe state) the software can control its job operation. It also must have an estop that is mechanical. The dangerous parts of these machines (laser and spindle) must not start without mechanical interlocks closed.
The smoothie and Lightburn folks spent multiple years getting a controller and software combination that works for the K40. I tested and used all these configurations on the way to the current state. I think the K40 controller and associated software needs are solved!
What is the advantage of a PI when C3D and Lightburn already provide; control panel, Gcode machine & job control which includes camera & bed movement? External devices like air, evac and water pumps can also be controlled with the C3D although I do not want my water pump ever to be off. In my machine, an aux panel controls all AC to the air assist and evac pumps but its built from simple relays switches & LEDs.
The things I was thinking of kit-ing in my earlier post was about the simple, critical but illusive interlocks, tube protection etc. I doubt the newbies that we have been talking about would be that willing to spend the $$$ and time to install anything that requires much wiring and if they do the support is probably a nightmare.
I have thought many times that an add-on embedded monitor was essential and in fact, started down that road a few times. I stopped after I found easier, safer and cheaper ways to do each of them in turn. Then again I love building embedded controllers so I still think this would be a fun project if it included bed controls.
I even got deep into the notion of just building a better machine from scratch but realized the world did not need another Full Spectrum or Glowforge and full safety compliance is expensive in design and approval. It also became clear that the folks that want these for hobbies do not want to pay much more than a K40.
All in all adding over-temp protection, DVM on the pot and interlocks to a stock machine gives the new K40 user most of the basics needed to get good to excellent results.
Doubtful??? Ask @NedMan what upgrades he has done enabling him to create his amazing work :). Last I checked he still has a nano!
@funinthefalls,
I designed and built a K40 lift table controller that allows you to raise and lower the bed with a joystick. It also will allow you to switch between joystick control and Lightburn control.
I have a prototype running in my machine.
I am willing to share the design and software if you think it would make a nice addition to your controller project.
Perhaps I could trade it for one of your first production units :)!
We could always look at selling it on the Beam Buddy product site. Right now we are selling the high resolution heads we designed, and the safety sytem will be the next product. A z table would be great. We will also be carrying replacement optics soon.
I’d say that a great way to to native web pages of this content here would be to create a post for each separate topic. That also gives starting points for conversations on different topics more naturally, and discourse makes it easy to break them out later into their own topics, keeping links to the new discussion, so we don’t have to be the “stay on topic police” about it. The sticky “New to K40: Start Here” post can link to non-sticky posts.
I’m happy to help with this, please let me know!
@ mcdanlij: Good idea. What’s the simple, effective way to insert what amounts to a hyperlink from inside one post to another post. Libre and Open Office will both automate in-document links as will html editors. The links can then just be replaced with the post redirection. For a limited number issues those can be either manually replaced or hunted down.
This will probably spawn a spirited discussion:
None of the below intends to deter anyone from making improvements or building alternate approaches. Its just that in this discussion I have “been there done that” so I fill compelled to poke the beast…
First off, I’m fully prepared to learn from someone with a different background. I have an EE background, but only months of thinking about the K40, mostly on my own,
I would never endorse a laser or CNC machine in which main power is turned on any automated way. Once the machine is turned on and enabled by a human (after ensuring the machine and room is in a safe state) the software can control its job operation. It also must have an estop that is mechanical. The dangerous parts of these machines (laser and spindle) must not start without mechanical interlocks closed.
That’s reasonable. Electrical safety standards do require a manual disconnect as well. UL, IEC, and other country standards specify that this can be done by the electrical socket disconnect below X power (I’d have to look up X, but the K40 is less than that). I’ve always thought that was silly, and that “polite” design made this be at least a hard two-wires disconnect - a switch. But there are cases where once you have the machine enabled manually where it would be very nice to disable AC power to sections of the machine. Hence the second AC switch inside the manual disconnect.
EPO switches are a good idea, but putting them on the machine likely to generate the fire is something to be thought about. I come from a formerly major computer company, where the EPO is mounted hand-high next to the exit door, so you can slap it as you’re running from the roaring fire. In my mind, the EPO switch for the K40 might best be mounted from 3 to 10 feet away from the machine, perhaps right next to the fire extinguisher so your movement away from the fire leaves you an efficient way to both kill the electrical power while deciding on fight or flight as you flee the machine. I am by no means a safety expert.
The smoothie and Lightburn folks spent multiple years getting a controller and software combination that works for the K40. I tested and used all these configurations on the way to the current state. I think the K40 controller and associated software needs are solved!
May well be. As I said, I’m new at this. I will need some experience before any real discussion of those deeper issues.
What is the advantage of a PI when C3D and Lightburn already provide; control panel, Gcode machine & job control which includes camera & bed movement?
In my baby steps approach, wifi connection to the machine. Do C3D and Lightburn let you do that? If so, maybe none. I’m aware of the advantages of the software operation of the laser movement and so on that users have posted. Just haven’t tried them, so I’m ignorant of the details. I see the Pi as an overseer, that I can reach out for ready to burn jobs from the graphics machine.
External devices like air, evac and water pumps can also be controlled with the C3D although I do not want my water pump ever to be off. In my machine, an aux panel controls all AC to the air assist and evac pumps but its built from simple relays switches & LEDs.
I agree, the pumps and fans should not be off. It’s more like killing any possibility of the laser going on when a pump/fan/flow fail is sensed, a second level of stoppage for those times when for example, you told the pump to run, but it’s inlet hose is kinked, or the fan motor spins but the impeller spins on the shaft. It amounts to feedback on the desired result, not on starting the auxiliaries up.
The things I was thinking of kit-ing in my earlier post was about the simple, critical but illusive interlocks, tube protection etc. I doubt the newbies that we have been talking about would be that willing to spend the $$$ and time to install anything that requires much wiring and if they do the support is probably a nightmare.
No disagreement here. I’m still thinking my way through it.
I have thought many times that an add-on embedded monitor was essential and in fact, started down that road a few times. I stopped after I found easier, safer and cheaper ways to do each of them in turn. Then again I love building embedded controllers so I still think this would be a fun project if it included bed controls.
That’s another thing requiring thinking. A Pi suitable to the things that are needed for the K40 is $35, and you might well be able to use a Pi Zero W AT $10. A 5" Pi display that fits the existing control panel cutout is ~$40, and an old HDMI monitor might be less, although external. In the role of a com link and overseer, it might be a fit. K40 whisperer runs native on the Pi, although it brings its own limitations as a software package, probably much more limited than the more-extensive packages. But it might well be a usable cost point for people satisfied with the limitations of the M2 Nano controller. Think of this as one step up from the base system for the limited budget, with some added overseer/monitoring functions and native communications. Different price point.
I even got deep into the notion of just building a better machine from scratch but realized the world did not need another Full Spectrum or Glowforge and full safety compliance is expensive in design and approval. It also became clear that the folks that want these for hobbies do not want to pay much more than a K40.
Building a better machine from scratch? Not for me. And I totally agree that the hobbyist market is cost- and attention-limited. Hence the cheaper Pi package might hit a useful step up. Especially if you go for an low-end overseer role, leaving off the display.
All in all adding over-temp protection, DVM on the pot and interlocks to a stock machine gives the new K40 user most of the basics needed to get good to excellent results.
Agree. I originally just programmed a PIC to monitor that kind of thing. Left off when a nominal-price Pi offered both wireless communications and the possibility of expansion to higher function.
Doubtful??? Ask @NedMan what upgrades he has done enabling him to create his amazing work :). Last I checked he still has a nano!
Not doubtful. As I said, I started with a PIC, and was seduced by the Shiny Thing of comm, display, and expansion without having to write the detail code inside the PIC.
No argument, just a baby steps approach in the design space.
If you want to quote the beginning of the article, you just drop the whole link in, like this:
https://forum.makerforums.info/t/new-to-k40-start-here/79751
Note that this doesn’t really preserve much formatting, as see above.
If you want to link it in text, you can just say to start here with [start here](/t/new-to-k40-start-here/79751)
To make it possible to link to a heading inside a post:
<a name="the_id_you_choose"></a>
## [Name Of Your Section](#the_id_you_choose)
Then the link would be [text](/t/category/id#the_id_you_choose) and it will take the user directly to that heading. (The number of # characters determines the level of the heading.)
Sorry for the delay. Got the file updated, mildly reorganized, converted to PDF with links inside it. Here’s the next draft.
Additions and corrections solicited!
EDIT: apparently not. I’ve made three attempts to upload the file, and although it appears to be uploading, nothing appears in the upload. Help…
Wait, why PDF?
I think that maintaining it as searchable HTML by having the text in the posts is really important for making the information accessible. I thought that was the plan.