Oh yeah, I love developing in C#. It’s a fantastic language to use. My only issue is that there is not a cross platform GUI toolkit, and I use linux servers.
I’ll have to hear the full story to decide, but I see any standard that is free to use that allows improved functionality to be a good thing. If drm is a part of it, and it can be traded freely or locked down, it would probably be ok. Sounds like a contradiction though. If it was an option to get the benefit of multicolor printing and we didn’t have to use the drm, I might like it. Someone has to improve the format. The thing that scares me is if the drm requires licensing or cost. Or that the ecosystem would be owned and controlled by any one company. Autodesk spark platform worries me for the same reason. I guess it didn’t slow adoption for iTunes though. If an open ecosystem doesn’t come from the open source community, we will probably be dragged kicking and screaming to a locked down platform and pay the “apple tax”. Even if an open ecosystem does emerge, it will be limited without some den system to speed adoption in the b2b space.
embrace…extend…extinguish…no thanks.
The DRM part is a tool and if used properly can be useful.
@Oystein_Krog it depends on the way you make the gui. C# is probably the wrong choice. Along with many other front ends, but java is an ugly option. There are people who have used html and the chrome engine, and if you don’t want anything flashy you could use tkinter. All will preserve cross platform compatibility and allow for guis.I have done limited development, hardware guy here, but when I do I do my best for cross platform.
We have a chrome browser app working internally and I was shocked to see my programmer run our Cnc with it… Sidestepping all the fancy pants stuff in the neat, but over-reaching chillipepper. Since we use fusion 360 ultimate for cam, Brian wanted a simple streaming program to just run the dang thing. It worked perfectly. Chrome has serial connections built in so it was relatively trivial… No convoluted drivers to install- it just connected and worked. Easy html /css/ etc UI and all. I immediately dug around to find a windows pc with chrome… It worked. Check. Then I wondered about just using a chrome book- a very low bar. Check. That worked too. I didn’t test on Linux box, surely they have chrome browser for generic favors of Linux.
AnywAy, since all of us here use various host software - repetier, cura, pronterface and Octoprint… All with various love-hate relationships, AND we tend to slice in both cura and slicer for different types of print jobs… We wondered about using the chrome app to run printers. It’s so stripped down, only what you need to throw a gcode at it and print. 5 minutes later, Mick had it running Brian’s printer. Check.
I’m actually surprised no one else has gone for this route. Schools have zillions of chrome books so it seems a good match.
Even though I am focused on a mobile-centric future for 3d printing, there is some life left in desktop apps - or apps that require computers. I actually think microsoft’s 3d builder app is brilliant for beginners but an os-specific solution will never get wide adoption I don’t think. Look at microsofts recent moves with their office suite… They live in a new reality now.
Host software will have to go through these growing pains until one cross platform solution emerges as king. It still begs the question: will host software just end up on some web server built right into the electronics board on printers? I think Gina with Octoprint is on the right path. But if history is any indication, that little host / print server on the board may fade away to be replaced by a simple auto print feature that needs no UI at all. When I print on my 2d printer, I just hit print. The magic fairies in the drivers, software, os, cloud, etc just get er done.
Back to the file format wars brewing… If it prints, I’m happy. And for it to print, they will have to get adoption from all these host software projects out there… And manufacturers. I, for one, am all for improved functionality and ease of use, but not at the expense of giving the keys to the ecosystem kingdom over to large private corporations or to competitors who gain the advantage of selling models and filament or services directly to my customer base. Im ok if consumers have choices, but infant to be able to at least offer MY choice.
It worked for apple though (iTunes / App Store) and I admit I was a willing participant for ease of use sake and eventually for better selection and quality. I wasn’t in a position to offer an alternative. Perhaps the tide is changing and the open source community will score a win…, arguably, android is a compelling example, but that was only after being championed by Google who had ridiculous skin in the game. That was an os war and many could argue no one cares anymore… Or at least we care less and less as apps took center stage and now, content itself is king. These over-reaching examples weren’t really about file format or superior technology… They were about real estate (market share) and dollars… Eyeballs… Wallets.
File formats and host software are two ways to gain access to users and wallets. Interestingly, no 3d printer manufacturer has put the whole ecosystem package together (yet) like apple did : locked down hardware, software, marketplace, apps, cloud services.
Autodesk is the closest to doing this but they are light in the hardware department- at least for consumers… At least for now. I know, from Carl Bass himself, that once they released free software via iOS, they got a taste of the huge huge marketplace calling to them to tap for future monetization. I think Microsoft might be tasting that same delicious fruit. They both are trying to leverage what they do well to open up new avenues for revenue. Nothing wrong with companies fighting to grow the company after all… It’s not evil, it’s capitalism. No one is advancing this tech divorced from the thought of potential gain. I know they are out there, but it takes deep pockets to take the market and idealistic, purist, heroes can’t make the huge impacts that profitable companies are in the position of making. I can see how this thinking might frustrate some. This reality used to frustrate me, but we live in an extremely consumeristic world. I’ve resigned a bit to just keep marching…, to carve out a niche… Dream about and work toward an idealistic goal. but you have to make money to stay in the game in order to secure a position, that later , may put you in a position to effect positive change. The goal: stay alive.
This is an entirely new market, so competition is fierce and highly motivated. I think these large companies drag so much legacy infrastructure that scrappy companies like mine can offer alternatives at lower price points and margins. there is always room for newcomers and fresh approaches in the gargantuan consumer marketplace. I do think that large companies have to first focus on big profits in the b2b space before conquering the consumer ecosystem … That’s my opening… Open source tools have opened a gaping hole in the line big enough for small hardware companies to run through… If they are fast and nimble enough.
So for now open source file formats and host software and even open hardware is gaining a lead. MakerBot is a cautionary tale to those trying to capitalize on leveraging open source to win the hearts of (higher margin) business sales channels in a play to win the ecosystem war. They are down but not out, mind you.
This is a ridiculously long post and perhaps embarrassingly self serving but it’s an honest plea to those out there complaining about evil businesses building an empire that we feel forced to live in. My advice: go build something. Contribute. Start a company. Offer a new option.
My dream is to keep building hardware and hope the file format wars have a happy ending. I wish the same for the app-wars (host software), but that one, I feel I can participate in. Host software is broken, in my opinion. I want to build a better option with better ease of use. I also am not standing by as a bystander in the ecosystem war… It is closely tied to the host software. Host software is limited without access to files (content)… And vice versa. The two are both part of the whole that makes a great ux… User experience.
In building my version of an ecosystem, the trick will be creating something that doesn’t piss off the precious community out there. Something open enough to gain momentum (say innocuous cloud services) that leverages any machine (free host software) and any model repository (open file formats) while maintaining a lead in sales of hardware to fund the whole thing. It’s a complicated proposition. One that leaves me wondering “if I build it all on open software, why would customers choose Printrbot if everyone eventually leverages the work and replicates a free, easy to use ecosystem?” Plus, I worry about the android problem of a splintered android Os market-- too many choices out there may stunt momentum.
Putting together a compelling total package may not be enough if big companies just throw huge money at the problem. They can win the long game with enough money and patents to block less compelling offerings in a war of attrition.
Ok, if you’ve made it this far, I am both sorry and grateful. I welcome feedback, even heated debate. I’ll be listening especially closely to thievery skin in the game - other developers, designers, coders… Now that companies like autodesk, Microsoft and HP are part of the conversation, it’s getting scary.
Is it time to lock elbows with other open source manufacturers to form a line of defense against the corporate competition… An open ecosystem, better free host software, future proof file format, and, dare I say it, drm?
Brook
@Brook_Drumm For me, especially when I see things like this (http://blogs.windows.com/bloggingwindows/2014/04/02/update-on-3d-printing-in-windows/), it makes me think that we should be working hand in hand with these companies. I think printers should be made more reliable, auto leveling, etc. Right now, we’re aiming for cheaper and not better and that’s a terrifying thought. I’m not concerned with Microsoft’s file format (3MF?), but I’m glad they’re considering 3D printers at least. I think 3D printers should be on the same field as 2D printers.
What I’d love would be a controller board with one mcu to do movement coordination (A small arm maybe) and another to handle things like slicing. I guess it could be dual core, but I like the idea of the printer controller having access to a multicore chip all on its own and not have anything like an OS possibly take it up. I think we should move a little bit away from printer as the black box that you send gcode to, and more as printer is the black box you send a model to.
This obviously begs the question of slicing software built in. Yes, it can reduce customization of slicing software if implemented incorrectly, but many of the people wanting to buy a printer honestly couldn’t care as long as their prints came out correctly. If I could send a 3D file to my printer with an Intel atom on board, and get results from that, I’d be ecstatic. I feel that’s the direction we’re trying to move in, but just can’t. If I was good at board design, I would design that, but I’m afraid I’m not.
I guess I’m just saying we shouldn’t be kicking and screaming, but really trying to help. Updating a devices firmware becomes a lot easier if you have something that’s a little smarter than just receiving gcode.
@Justin_Nesselrotte I agree that the printer should be the black box. That would greatly simplify. My first octiprint plugin for internal use moves a file to raspberry pi and slices it onboard. That’s an early version of what you describe. It uses the cloud to move the file but could be done locally too.
Brook
@Brook_Drumm @Makible tried to do that, but they had cash flow issues, making their venture insolvent. They tried to hit everything and ended up with nothing. You guys are in a position to make the software.
I experimented with a chrome printing host awhile back. It was amazing that it just magically worked. https://plus.google.com/+BillyZelsnack/posts/FwcRTQf8Vgw However I do think that the chilipeppr architechture of running mini hardware webservers to expose functionality to javascript is the way to go. You could implement built in hardware support for browsers like chrome so it just works but you’d not be locked into chrome.
I talked with Mick today, my software guy, to discuss. We agreed an open source project is the way to go but with a super bare bones approach. Sort of an updated pronterface but with ability to receive a file from the cloud- sidestepping the need to use on board slicers and confusing terms that often stump beginners. This would be available to extend as the community sees fit.
We just want to load a file and get to printing. We are considering preloading models to speed that first print and could recommend new models as they come down the pipe. Integration with repositories would be easy, but not sure who would jump on board… May have to tie into our repository.
We will also add a much needed wizard to tame our auto trimming sensor/firmware. We need to remove the need to use gcode. Other manufacturers could do their own.
Brainstorm- a drop down of printers could configure more than build size- it could load default wizards from the manufacturer, choose the repository of choice (assuming they support it) and change out the branding. Consumers win.
Just thinking out loud
@Brook_Drumm I’m curious why you like the cloud so much. Mostly because BotQueue is cloud oriented, but I’m just curious as to why you like it as opposed to a local approach.
A couple of reasons. First let me say that local control is always a need and never off the table.
I like the cloud because it is light weight and allows limitless possibilities on UI, remote monitoring, using other services (Twitter, IFTTT, etc), helps improve customer support, can leverage model repositories, give opportunity to offer coupons and products, and can connect users with each other to collaborate.
The future of consumer 3d printing is connected and works on mobile devices
Brook