+Paul I completely agree. Backers endorsing unproven, undocumented business models, inexperienced business owners and being susceptible to smoke and mirror marketing videos deserve some of the blame, I think. My kickstarter lacked proof I knew how to run a manufacturing business (which I didn’t), didn’t explain the business plan (since I went on gut feeling), and didn’t have a slick video (but had humor and likability). It was a gamble for everybody but worked out. It’s a crap shoot.
We need a focused crowd funding site for products - not “fund my life”, art, event or fundraiser projects- that takes these unknowns and shores them up. Perhaps a manufacturer that knows how to build and reviews, informs or helps manage the business model, and guides the marketing for best practices on clarity, message, quality and even ethics… a profit share for the parent organization would work. There should be a rule that no money can be paid to the idea/prototype creator until all units ship. And maybe even 50% payment on campaign success and final 50% upon shipping. I’ve seen examples of straight up scams, tons of bad money management, poor leadership, bad communication, and dishonest launch videos… sad. Much if not all of this could be avoided. The one other annoyance is too-far-out delivery dates. It should be capped at 6 months. If you can’t do it in 6 months, something is wrong.
I also like the idea of backers getting a few shares of the company and capping the number of units in the campaign… maybe even capping the campaign dollar amount.
Some of this could be improved by a voluntary review process by the parent organization that secures a “likely to succeed if funded” status and is paid for through points to the parent organization.
This offer lead to very interesting comments. I agree with most of the Brook statements but the medal got two sides. I completely agree that at maximum you got what you paid for or less. With 3D printing industry it is often a lot less. I don’t understand the price point, most of the vendors do not support or do it really limited their open source firmware developer/community. So the firmware comes almost free. They use common schematics so not really big RND there. And what is left goes for the RND in the mechanics. Or how to bay the worst quality mechanics and make it work and look great. Than other comes and took their design and compliment with same crap mechanics and sell for less as they didn’t put a dime into RND. This is how 3D printer ecosystem works so far …
It is shame that we can’t see printer with industry grade mechanics. Even Ultimaker use same low end, low cost china mechanics. I haven’t seen someone to offer printer with bearing from well known brands like THK, INA, Rexroth or HIWIN or with branded belts even they cost between 5 and 15 times more than the china replicas. But I have seens a lot of advertising that this printer is EU/USA made without remark “With same china noname shit in it”.
This is same with the most popular stepper drivers and motors. I really enjoy about the statements that Alegro work with this type of motors but Ti with others. But no one state why … The truth is that Alegro and TI 8825 are cheap poor performance drivers that do not support decay tuning neither auto-decay mode but yes they cost 1 euro per chip. Than we came here and start brainstorming “Why I have this bad ringing or artefacts”.
Another story are the stepping motors. Oriental sells stepper for around 30-40$ per pcs to me. China brands ask for 18-20 per piece for 0.9 step motor. But again no matter how much you spend on a printer you will never get one with 5-phase Oriental. Four motors and drivers for 5-phase precise could be achieved as low as 400 euro but even Ultimaker 3 for its price of 3k+ euro do not come with them.
At the end we users have one choice Cheap China stuff with brand or without.
You have some good points but have made some leaps in logic. Chinese parts are not 5 or 15 times worse. I can print at .05mm consistently w Chinese bars, bearings and motors. How would I justify 5-15x on those key elements? Name brands are not better because they cost more- there has to be a reason to do it.
I’ve had THK reps in house trying to sell their stuff and I just show them my china prices on rails and lead screw… they promptly leave. They know it’s not worth it. Apple builds the best computer hardware in china… its BETTER. Heavy on opinion, I know, but they charge for a perceived premium brand and still use china. So ultimaker can do the same. The question is what is your standard of tolerance and can it be found in china. The answer is yes.
It comes down to tight qc. High standards. Obsessive sourcing (case in point: Tim Cook). And killer marketing. It takes time and money to build a strong brand and message. And a CEO (board) with unwavering vision and ridiculous standards. That last point is really the linchpin. You need critical mass to achieve this and even 1 million isn’t enough to skip any of the key elements. It’s really company culture. And you can’t fake that. It is what it is.
I will leave other points alone. I’m not saying “go to china”- quite the opposite. I’m saying leverage china w smart business decisions and make in the USA w high quality standards and offer top notch support. China can’t do this whole package on their own.
@Brook_Drumm yes, there are quality manyfacturers, I have some who do castings for me and some who do small electronics. It is some luck, and having good initial q.c. before they ship.
@Brook_Drumm , I never state that CHina is bad. HIWIN is China (Taiwan) brand that is on par with the rest. The problem is that 3D Printer industry use parts that are not certify and that do not meet any quality standards. For example LUU bearings, this have nothing to do with real bearings. If you see any brand bearing and just 2$ bearing from ebay you will find that certain parts are missing from this for 2$ like separator :). It is often that 3D printer strong brands ship printers with bend screws with bearings that grind and etc. Just 3D Printing ECOsystem use the worst available components on the market. I will give you small example I can bay CNC from Germany for 3-4k Euro with HIWIN ball screw and bearings and for comparison Ultimaker 3 cost same and use cheaper/noname mechanics.
And the quality of the mechanics make difference. Just before few days member of this group show the difference between cheap 2$/meter noname belt vs PowerGrip brand belt.
I personally have no comparison between printer made with cheap stuff and industry certify stuff but I plan to make my own printer in the future. But I had CNC with cheap stuff (Lead Screw + cheap LUU bearings) and I made with industry quality stuff. The price difference is 3 times for same envelope all bought from ebay. But the result is not even comparable. The accuracy in milled aluminium is 10 times better.
Brook I believe you will also support me in this. Can you compare Ubis 13S with no name 10$ J-head extruder. Yes but only if consider how they look. The results will differ a lot because of small details like nozzle is not polished or poor machined, seal in good and sometime there will be leakage but some time I am sure that I will be able to print same way or close.
@George_Novtekov agree my tronxy in the tropics in Australia the bearing all had surface rust in 4 weeks. I replace the with a local set 2$ each instead of 6 for 2$
Now after 7 months still going strong
That’s the only fault I have found . printed over 4000m filament
